• Michael Arnold

    I’m a little confused about point three. Do you honestly believe that because users opt-in to podcasts that they are more willing to suffer through meandering hosts? If that’s the case, then podcasts must magically transform human beings who use them from busy people who value their time to die-hard fans who hang on every word. Don’t you think the same thing could happen with podcasts? Since we don’t have a whole lot of data about how much people really listen to podcasts, don’t you think you’re stretching it a bit here?

  • Michael Arnold

    I’m a little confused about point three. Do you honestly believe that
    because users opt-in to podcasts that they are more willing to suffer
    through meandering hosts? If that’s the case, then podcasts must
    magically transform human beings who use them from busy people who value
    their time to die-hard fans who hang on every word. People who “opt-in” to online videos often “opt-out” if the video loses their interest. Don’t you think
    the same thing could happen with podcasts? Since we don’t have a whole
    lot of data about how much people really listen to podcasts, don’t you
    think you’re stretching it a bit here?

    • Aaron Read

      I think Adam’s point is valid. Look at it this way: when you’re going to the movies, you’ve invested a fair amount of time and effort…psychological capital, let’s call it…and some money to go to the movie theater. Unless the movie REALLY stinks, you’re going to stick around to watch it all because of that investment you’ve made.

      On the other hand, if you came across the same movie on cable TV while channel surfing, you might only watch a few seconds, maybe a minute, get bored, and change the channel. You’ve invested much less into watching that movie, and there’s much less of a penalty if you “withdraw” that investment.

      Listening to the radio is like seeing the movie on cable TV, whereas the podcast is like going to see the same movie in the theater.

      Granted, the analogy isn’t perfect; I agree that you can’t get away with being TOO meandering in your podcast. Poor content is always poor content, regardless of the medium. But with a podcast you DO have somewhat more freedom to expect your listeners to stick with you even if it takes time to lead up to a point. The key is that the time you take can’t be wasted time. You can’t just meander senselessly, you’ve got to have good reason to take that time to make that point.

      • Aaron Read

        And yes, I don’t think there’s a whole lot of empirical data on this topic, but I think the logic is sound enough that we can accept it on face value for the moment.

        • Adam Ragusea

          Yeah, what Aaron said. Also worth noting how many of the most successful podcasts start with unbelievablely long, wandering riffs about not much at all. Bad radio. And yet WTF subscribers have developed an investment in Marc and his cats that makes them listen to the latest Maron household cat drama in a way that a general audience would not.

  • In my opinion both this piece and the one it references miss the larger point. While podcasting and radio are not “the same” they are part of a larger whole defined by audio, where any of the audio elements within that whole can be shaped to fit the more narrowly defined platforms.

    Media is defined by how it is used by consumers (and advertisers) and what the substitutes for that media are. My own research has shown that “radio” and “podcasts” share much attention in common, thus explaining why many if not most of the top ranked podcasts are radio shows.

    Meanwhile, the rush to advertisers by podcasters will depend on traditional metrics – reach and engagement – that are common to (drum roll) radio. I guarantee you that when Serial was in Cannes chatting up advertisers they were sharing their big numbers. Just like…radio.

    So to wrap up, the notion that these are “different” diminishes both. The idea that they are part of a larger canvas is the realization that creates the big opportunity.

  • Melinda Ward

    Check out David Byrne’s Ted Talk on How Architecture Helped Music Evolve.

    http://www.ted.com/talks/david_byrne_how_architecture_helped_music_evolve?language=en

    The space does help determine the form. There are all kinds of theatre which have much in common, but stand up comedy in a bar is a very different experience than attending a performance at Lincoln Center.

  • I had much the same reaction as Adam Ragusea to Tamar Charney’s observations on podcasting vs. radio. Along with a germ of insight, she ignores significant differences, which Adam’s followup piece begins to elucidate. He points to (1) the lack of “clock constraints” that allow a somewhat freer approach to program content and editing, (2) the ability of podcasts to serve smaller audiences than typical radio content, and (3) to the “opt-in” subscription relationship between the listener and the show. These are all useful distinctions, but there are still other important differences.

    Start with Ms. Charney’s statement that “podcasts are just a distribution technology.” Why yes, it is, but that technology enables a fundamentally different “use case” (a term from software development), one which happens to be the crux of an ongoing revolution in media. That is, podcasts enable “on-demand” use.

    It is impossible to overstate the importance of this, no matter how radio professionals like Ms. Charney would like to minimize it. On-demand, global, digital network delivery of media–whether via streaming or downloading (podcasting) is a fundamental improvement in access to audio content that enables wider, deeper and more flexible engagement by a far less constrained audience. Ignore this at your peril — even television is being disrupted by on-demand access. it is a fundamental paradigm shift in media.

    There are two other important differences between digital network delivery (on-demand streaming and podcasting) and radio.

    First, there is no limit to the number of new shows and new ideas that can be created and delivered worldwide via these methods, vs. the strict limit on shelf space on the air, which boils down to just a handful of prime hours each day per broadcast channel, framed by vast marginal dayparts with fractional audiences. Historically this has been the biggest underlying factor in discouraging experimentation and program diversity in public radio — even with a demonstrably appealing program, it took years to gain significant carriage, even in marginal time slots and with little financial incentive.

    Second (and perhaps more problematic for PDs) podcast producers do not need the approval of any professional gatekeeper to create, produce, promote and distribute these shows. They just need a good idea, some talent and the will to try it, plus a modest amount of startup money. That’s not to say that some of these producers would not benefit from professional development advice and support, but they do not have to pass through a go/no go barrier to publish.

    If, as Ms. Charney concludes inarguably, “public radio needs to focus on creating great new content and engaging new audiences” it will surely be obliged to embrace the more flexible, powerful usage and delivery paradigms that Internet delivery has provided, which will change what we mean when we talk about “radio” in the future.

    As Mark Ramsey points out in another comment,the larger concept of audio content is dissociating from the technical methods of delivery. Call it what you will, I believe we’re headed to a world where (with limited exceptions) any broadcast program that cannot also be accessed on-demand will be fatally handicapped.

    Stephen Hill, Producer
    Hearts of Space

  • Alex

    Just another point that I always bring up when discussing this is that radio has the possibility to be live – something which a podcast never will, even if its done in one take. When one listens to the radio and it is live (which is absurdly rare these days) you get a feeling the other end of that weird radio thing is someone talking there right now – right this second! As they speak, you are hearing it in real time, its like being on the phone. They’re out there right at the moment!! There’s some kind of weird feeling of connection possible from a live show that is impossible without the, almost subconscious, knowledge of liveness. Its like going to a play vs seeing a movie, at the play there’s that little secret desire that the performers will slip up or forget their lines isn’t it? But you’ll never even expect that in a movie. Its not live!

    I recognize this isn’t many people consider much anymore but its always bugged me anyway. What are your thoughts on live thing?

    • Kristine Rowland

      Isn’t everything that’s done, done live when it’s done? The phrase, for example “live in person.” The only alternative to that is terrifying. Why do we say that?